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26 May 2009 @ 12:21 am
No Matter How Many Times.....  
...I watch Revelations 6:8, the Slinky Quickening never fails to amuse me. Talk about unintentional humour in what was supposed to be a dramatic moment.

And no matter how many times I watch the two Horsemen eps, I still come away totally ticked off at Duncan.

Some things are eternal [g]
 
 
 
Black Rook: skatgrachonok on May 26th, 2009 06:33 am (UTC)
plus 100 :)

Oh, Horsemen eps... They made me watch the show back in 1998, they dragged me into the fandom yaer and a half ago...
Naturally, my first fic was in a way its resolution and my first songvid was based upon them:).
Ith: Methos - Bloody Swordithildyn on May 26th, 2009 06:39 am (UTC)
Those were the first episodes you saw?
(no subject) - grachonok on May 26th, 2009 06:45 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on May 26th, 2009 07:23 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - grachonok on May 26th, 2009 08:10 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on May 26th, 2009 08:12 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - grachonok on May 26th, 2009 08:21 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on May 26th, 2009 08:27 am (UTC) (Expand)
Panthera: Methos - Bitch Pleasepanthology on May 26th, 2009 06:33 am (UTC)
I spend half the series ticked off at Duncan. I'm all for a flawed hero, but ...
Ith: Methos - Gunithildyn on May 26th, 2009 06:37 am (UTC)
Well yeah, but those two *really* wind me up!
(no subject) - panthology on May 26th, 2009 06:48 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - grachonok on May 26th, 2009 06:51 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - panthology on May 26th, 2009 06:54 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on May 26th, 2009 06:58 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - panthology on May 26th, 2009 07:52 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on May 26th, 2009 08:00 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - grachonok on May 26th, 2009 08:04 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - panthology on May 26th, 2009 08:16 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - grachonok on May 26th, 2009 08:32 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - panthology on May 26th, 2009 08:34 am (UTC) (Expand)
fractured_sunfractured_sun on May 26th, 2009 08:27 am (UTC)
Funny isn't it, I'm sure we're meant to feel horrified at Methos but I think redemption and growth from darkness is such a powerfully positive image... Plus we all already love Methos.

I'm not sure now what my reaction was when I first saw the episode, to many rewatches to contend with. At the last watch a large part of me wanted to whack Duncan on the head (several times until he stopped being an idiot), but the rest of me actually felt a bit sorry for him. Like when you first discover your parents aren't perfect after all (even though they never pretended to be). They both looked so upset after that confrontation in the carpark.

It's not like he lets it go afterwards either, he had less trouble with John Cage's reinvention.

Still not sure what all the fuss was about, in that time period only killing 10 people a year practically made you a humanitarian :-).
Ith: Methos - Lookithildyn on May 26th, 2009 08:32 am (UTC)
I could go on for pages about my Duncan issues, but I'll pick one: Darius. Duncan worshiped him, but Darius only became good via a Light Quickening. Methos changed all on his own, through his own desire. Not to mention Methos saved Duncan from a Dark Quickening, never judging him after he killed Sean.
(no subject) - grachonok on May 26th, 2009 08:38 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - anoriel on May 26th, 2009 08:44 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - fractured_sun on May 26th, 2009 08:52 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pat_t on May 26th, 2009 06:32 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on May 26th, 2009 06:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pat_t on May 26th, 2009 07:02 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on May 26th, 2009 07:11 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - fractured_sun on May 26th, 2009 07:17 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pat_t on May 26th, 2009 07:45 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(Deleted comment)
Ith: Methos - Forestithildyn on May 26th, 2009 08:57 am (UTC)
All my Duncan fan friends are going to be very annoyed with me! I didn't expect my random post to generate such passion!
(no subject) - em_kellesvig on May 26th, 2009 09:07 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on May 26th, 2009 05:22 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - carenejeans on May 26th, 2009 05:28 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on May 26th, 2009 05:36 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - fractured_sun on May 26th, 2009 05:57 pm (UTC) (Expand)
It's the 54th verse of the same damn song - tazlet on May 28th, 2009 03:31 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: It's the 54th verse of the same damn song - ithildyn on May 28th, 2009 06:07 pm (UTC) (Expand)
ozcmom: Bag End doorozcmom on May 26th, 2009 10:20 am (UTC)
Ooooh! HL chat!!!

Sorry, I just stumbled across this and am so thrilled to find people chatting about two episodes that were the first I had seen of HL! (because I picked up Cass as a favour for an old RP buddy to help her out)

I had read the scripts/episode synopsis, and built my character's bg on that information, and was honestly struggling to understand why everyone in HL fandom hated Cassandra. But oh damn, when I finally saw the episodes I joined them! So much so I ended up changing the PB as I couldn't come to terms with a) how incredibly cruel the writers were to the character and b) I couldn't accept that the way she was portrayed was anything near what the woman who had survived more than 3,500 years would really be. I won't go into how shockingly shallow and awful most of the woman are portrayed in the series...

And Methos!love is just... well isn't that what it's all about? *g* After what he says to Alexa and does who couldn't fall in love with him??

Duncan is... well I just figure he's at a disadvantage as he's at the whim of what they need the hero to do in that episode. I've literally just watched the Methos!epis of S3 then most of S4, 5 and 6...

*takes a breath*

Sorry, hope it's OK to have leapt in! :D
Ith: Methos - Gunithildyn on May 26th, 2009 05:27 pm (UTC)
It's always okay to leap in :) Nice to meet you.

Sine I saw the series from the beginning, I'd already been introduced to Cassandra in a prior episode. Loathed her, and couldn't understand just why they brought her back of all people for such a pivotal episode. I remember watching when the ep first aired, and that opening section where she appears and thinking that this was going to be a pain to watch with her back. Heh! I had no idea what was about to happen obviously [g]
(no subject) - grachonok on May 26th, 2009 06:03 pm (UTC) (Expand)
calliopes_pen: katchie_baker hair of Deathcalliopes_pen on May 26th, 2009 12:16 pm (UTC)
Bits of Season 5 were actually the very first season I managed to catch in reruns, followed by Counterfeit, parts 1 and 2, and I've always loved that Quickening.

My first episode was Archangel when it originally aired, so I always thought Duncan was at least a bit nuts. Revelations 6:8 confirmed that his judgment's not the best, since Methos had obviously changed for the better after 3,000 years.

Edited at 2009-05-26 12:16 pm (UTC)
fractured_sun: personal spacefractured_sun on May 26th, 2009 02:01 pm (UTC)
That must have been a very strange introduction to the series. I'm not sure I'd have ever watched it again if Archangel had been the first episode I watched.
(no subject) - calliopes_pen on May 26th, 2009 03:24 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - fractured_sun on May 26th, 2009 03:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - calliopes_pen on May 26th, 2009 05:13 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - amand_r on May 26th, 2009 06:57 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - carenejeans on May 26th, 2009 07:33 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - amand_r on May 26th, 2009 07:37 pm (UTC) (Expand)
layla_aaron: Modern Horsemen of the Apocalypseluscious_words on May 26th, 2009 01:22 pm (UTC)
*raises hand* Yeah, count me in the ticked off at Duncan circle. I think the Horsemen eps were the eps that opened my eyes to how black and white Duncan's view of the world was. While Methos saw and accepted that life is in shades of gray, Duncan was unwilling to accept that. Never mind some of his own experiences and actions he might have taken, he still held everyone up to his own idealistic standard, a standard he himself didn't always follow.

I'll also admit that I did like to see the darker side to Methos. To learn that this person who chose to survive by taking on a meeker demeanor and to fly under the radar used to be flagrant in showing what he was capable of doing, used to use his immortality for immense personal gain, was quite enlightening. I was a Methos girl through and through, and am now happy to be a Horsemen girl. :D
fractured_sunfractured_sun on May 26th, 2009 01:57 pm (UTC)
It's a recurring theme for the later series, the idea that absolutes are dangerous beliefs. Poor Duncan though tries to hold both himself and everyone else to an unrealistic standard, you could call it growing pains as he realises the world isn't that simple.

He really doesn't like havng his world view altered though. Makes you wonder about all the evil immortals he's killed and whether they could have been redeemed.
(no subject) - luscious_words on May 26th, 2009 02:07 pm (UTC) (Expand)
endaewenendaewen on May 26th, 2009 05:08 pm (UTC)
As with a few others, those two episodes were the first ones I watched. I'd already had my character views shaped by fanfic by that point though.

Honestly, I still haven't seen all the episodes, even though I now have all the seasons (still haven't seen the Dark Quickening, or about half of season one, just to name a few. Season six is still in the original shrink wrap LOL).
dejladejla on May 26th, 2009 05:53 pm (UTC)
All I can say is--I didn't need new plot bunnies, Ith.
Ithithildyn on May 26th, 2009 05:57 pm (UTC)
Eh?
(no subject) - dejla on May 26th, 2009 07:07 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on May 26th, 2009 07:11 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - fractured_sun on May 26th, 2009 07:12 pm (UTC) (Expand)
pat: Adrian apswordpat_t on May 26th, 2009 06:42 pm (UTC)
I'm over here hugging mishief5 and carenejeans in the Duncan circle. I love Methos, you know I do. But Duncan isn't the black and white character some people make him out to be. He struggled through all the deception, lies and manipulation. He fought his own emotions and held on to his belief that Methos was his friend and wouldn't ultimately betray him.

Remember how hopeful he was in the cemetary when he told Methos to come on after Methos confided the rest of his story? That's all it took - a little honesty and he was ready to grab hold welcome his friend back. He believed until the end that Methos wouldn't let him down. Until the final confrontation when Methos told him "I go with the winner" and he ran off to tell Silas to kill Cassandra. Yes, we know that wasn't what he did. But there was no way Duncan could know that.
Ithithildyn on May 26th, 2009 06:51 pm (UTC)
I replied to your other comment up there, so won't repeat it here. So will share my amusing thought: where I start to get really aggravated is when Joe is trying to talk to Duncan about Methos and Duncan isn't having any of it. Now, if he'd thought about it and realized Joe had a point and maybe he should give Methos a chance, then there would have been no second episode.

So yeah, Duncan behaving as I would have liked him to sorta takes the wind from the sails of all the drama, so in the end, it was probably for the best [g]
pat: HL nosepat_t on May 26th, 2009 06:47 pm (UTC)
As far as my other feelings about what was going on, you can read that in another comment I made in another thread to this post.

Interesting that both David and Peter have said how disappointed they were that they weren't able to show explicitly enough how evil Methos really was. That they had to tone down the violence. Then fans were putting a romantic turn on the Bronze age Methos/ Cassandra story. It wasn't romantic. He raped and beat her. He murdered people indiscriminately.

In one interview Peter stated that he was really disturbed that people were using the "you live to serve me" line so casually - as if it were part of a sex game or fun.

TBC
Ith: Methos - Leather Profileithildyn on May 26th, 2009 06:55 pm (UTC)
Oh, totally. I don't like Bronze Age Methos at all. Definitely not in the camp that are fans of the Horsemen.

And I have absolutely no issue with Cassandra hating Methos either. That was her right. Still doesn't mean I like the character though. But I don't care about Cassandra, I do care about Duncan (really, I do) and so his actions mean more.
pat: HL Duncan 2 swordspat_t on May 26th, 2009 06:53 pm (UTC)
Further, David has stated how unfortunate it was that they used Cassandra because fans already had a preconceived notion about her and did not like her.

The idea was to have someone Duncan knew and trusted who knew something evil about someone else he knew and trusted - to put him in that dilemma. We didn't like Cassandra because of Prophesy so we didn't really feel any empathy or sympathy for what happened to her. We just saw her as a manipulating witch who hurt Duncan and/or Methos.

I think it would have been a bit different if it had been Amanda, Grace or even Ceirdwyn.

You know, when Duncan had come out of the dark quickening - after he had told Methos what it felt like to have that kind of evil inside you - it would have been the perfect time for Methos to sit him down and explain that, yes, he did know. He had lived through it and overcome it himself.

Then when Cassandra came a calling, Duncan would have been prepared instead of being Gobsmacked.

Edited at 2009-05-26 06:54 pm (UTC)
Ithithildyn on May 26th, 2009 07:00 pm (UTC)
I think it would have been a bit different if it had been Amanda, Grace or even Ceirdwyn.

[nods] And of course, that would have dramatically changed the whole thing. All of those women can fight, and haven't relied on 'the voice' (I really hated that particular contrivance) to get by. Unlike Cassandra who seemed to barely be able to use a sword (which was also really annoying even if I didn't care for Cassandra) And none of them would feel the need to manipulate Duncan into fighting their battles for them. So many things about how Cassandra was portrayed, as a woman, left a bad taste in my mouth.
(no subject) - fractured_sun on May 26th, 2009 07:07 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - beccadg on May 27th, 2009 05:06 am (UTC) (Expand)
pat: HL Another messpat_t on May 26th, 2009 06:55 pm (UTC)
Btw, not upset with you either. I'm just thrilled that a Highlander discussion can still get this type of reaction and discussion.
Ith: Highlander - Friendsithildyn on May 26th, 2009 07:04 pm (UTC)
K :) I had just said yesterday, in fic notes, that offhanded comments pave the road to hell, and I should know better [g] Err... not so much, huh?

I had just rewatched three eps since I'm getting ready to write Methos again and just was making idle commentary. Maybe I should have said something about 'Indiscretions' instead!
(no subject) - fractured_sun on May 26th, 2009 07:10 pm (UTC) (Expand)
That's Lay-day Snackpants to you, buster.: my one highlander iconamand_r on May 26th, 2009 07:00 pm (UTC)
Appropriate Icon is Appropriate
Dude, I am Methos, and I can't hate Duncan. I was a lying asshole. and the morning he found about the Horsemen, I had already put Icy Hot in his shorts.

Bad day for a practical joke, that.

Edited at 2009-05-26 07:01 pm (UTC)
Ith: Methos - Easily Amusedithildyn on May 26th, 2009 07:01 pm (UTC)
Re: Appropriate Icon is Appropriate
[snorfle]
Re: Appropriate Icon is Appropriate - amand_r on May 26th, 2009 07:02 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Becca: Captain Jack See You by beccadgbeccadg on May 27th, 2009 05:13 am (UTC)
Heh, I get annoyed with Duncan watching the Horsemen eps, but then I get annoyed with the writers watching them. I can say they didn't actually make me permanently kind of angry with Duncan. I could understand him being thrown by finding out about Methos' past the way he did, and he does eventually get past it to insist Methos live and to hang out with him in future episodes. It does make me realize that as annoyed as I get with Duncan and the writers watching the Horsemen episodes the fact that the New Who episodes "The Parting of the Ways" and "Utopia" seem to have left me with some permanent anger at the Doctor shows the Highlander writers even on a bad day did better than RTD at keeping me in their hero's court.

Edited at 2009-05-27 05:15 am (UTC)