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18 May 2009 @ 09:27 pm
Marty Sue?  
So George Lucas based Luke on himself, and Gene Roddenberry based Wesley on himself, and those are just two are off the top of my head, and now, I discover that one of the creators of How I Met Your Mother based Ted on himself and the other creator, Marshall. Yet I never see the screams of 'MARY SUE!' that I'm sure would exist if these guys were women.

Just an observation.


Ted was originally modeled on you, and Marshall on Craig. How far have those characters evolved from that? Do you ever sit around and say, "I wouldn't do that" or "We wouldn't do that to each other"?

Ted certainly isn't me anymore. I haven't been engaged, or had a lot of the other experiences he's had. It's more the characters have become themselves .We definitely do try to ask ourselves, "Would this happen to us? Would this happen to someone we know?" for all the characters. We try to keep them personal and real, but there's more overlap now. I relate to Marshall as much as I do to Ted.


Full text here, but it is spoilerish for the last ep of the season.
 
 
 
Taxicab Messiah: sarah curious (big love)donna_c_punk on May 19th, 2009 03:42 am (UTC)
I don't get that either. But I've given up on trying to understand the irrational hate-on fandom has for The Vag. Three years in the SPN fandom cures you of that quick.
Ith: Art - Haida Maskithildyn on May 19th, 2009 04:31 am (UTC)
After nearly 30 years in fandom, I should be used to it, but I can't help the occasional rant :)
(no subject) - donna_c_punk on May 19th, 2009 04:34 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on May 19th, 2009 04:36 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - donna_c_punk on May 19th, 2009 04:40 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on May 19th, 2009 05:40 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dejla on May 20th, 2009 09:13 pm (UTC) (Expand)
I will call her George: Mag 7 - JD & Caseystrangevisitor7 on May 19th, 2009 04:23 am (UTC)
Except that the Mary-sue type is not merely based on the author's self. She is a women who is inexplicably perfect, loved by all and capable of performing any task including saving the hero when she has no idea how to shoot a gun/use a sword/perform karate/ride a horse/speak French...you name the skill and she suddenly can do it.

In my mind the ultimate Mary Sue is Lana from Smallville.

Ted is a flawed character - if he was a true Marty Sue we would never hear about his failures (lost his job/left at the alter) only his ability to do everything perfectly.

I do think the term Mary Sure is routinely supplied to any OFC and you and I both know that is not the case.

Sorry We've talked about this before and i get so angry about the Mary sue label. Charlotte is not a Mary Sue. But I do agree that OMCs are more accepted than OFCs
Ith: Art - Haida Maskithildyn on May 19th, 2009 04:30 am (UTC)
Yes, that is the supposed definition of a Mary Sue, but these days, any female character that a female creator acknowledged is based in part on herself would be instantly branded a Mary Sue. Not so for a man and a male character.

Yeah, I realize it's the reality of today's fandom, but it doesn't mean I can't bitch about it :)
(no subject) - strangevisitor7 on May 19th, 2009 04:54 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on May 19th, 2009 04:58 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - strangevisitor7 on May 19th, 2009 05:07 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on May 19th, 2009 05:21 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - beccadg on May 19th, 2009 08:26 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on May 19th, 2009 08:39 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - beccadg on May 19th, 2009 08:52 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on May 19th, 2009 09:22 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - beccadg on May 19th, 2009 10:09 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - strangevisitor7 on May 19th, 2009 08:43 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - beccadg on May 19th, 2009 10:32 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - keerawa on May 19th, 2009 05:32 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on May 19th, 2009 05:39 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - grachonok on May 19th, 2009 05:42 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on May 19th, 2009 05:48 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - grachonok on May 19th, 2009 06:13 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - dejla on May 20th, 2009 09:15 pm (UTC) (Expand)
The other Weird Alaeron_lanart on May 19th, 2009 05:50 am (UTC)
I distinctly remember the screams about Wesley being Marty Stu on usenet in Trek fandom years ago. Have to admit it's a lot quieter now...

and even acknowledged Mary-Sues can actually be fun to read and write
Ithithildyn on May 19th, 2009 05:52 am (UTC)
My impression was people just hated Wesley on principal LOL I actually liked him, so what do I know?
(no subject) - meekkat on May 21st, 2009 04:16 am (UTC) (Expand)
bookaddict43: riverwritingbookaddict43 on May 19th, 2009 07:22 am (UTC)
So true! The ranting is always less with male OMCs/Mary/Stus. The exception being, as someone above me said, poor Wesley in STNG.
Ith: My Photos - Zion Poolithildyn on May 19th, 2009 07:32 am (UTC)
[nods] the women folk just can't seem to catch a break.
piss and vinegardallion on May 19th, 2009 08:48 am (UTC)
I read this post and all the comments and I have no idea what anyone is talking about.
(Deleted comment)
Becca: OFC Pride icon by beccadgbeccadg on May 19th, 2009 09:07 am (UTC)
I've seen Marty Stu and Gary Stu used pretty equally. I'm not sure if I've seen Marty Sue before, but this morning it amuses me. :)
(Deleted comment)
(no subject) - beccadg on May 19th, 2009 08:33 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on May 19th, 2009 06:37 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - beccadg on May 19th, 2009 09:17 pm (UTC) (Expand)
fractured_sunfractured_sun on May 19th, 2009 08:59 am (UTC)
Ah see it's not so much whether they are based on a real person but whether they come out as a well rounded 3 dimensional character

I have an almost pathological hatred of badly portrayed female characters (whether in fandom or in canon). It's one of the things I hate about gundam wing (my main anime fandom). Some of the main female characters are basically just there to look pretty and take up space (though bizarrely some of the more minor female characters are awesome).

I'm much more forgiving about male characters (maybe I just care about them less). I love the interesting male characters and pretty much ignore the boring ones.

I absolutely adore strong, interesting and fun female characters. One of the reasons I love highlander, they have fantastic canon female characters- Amanda (for example). Anyone who can write an intersting OFC has my admiration. For some reason I find female characters much harder to write than male, (which is why I write them so occasionally and so slowly). I have no idea why this should be, you would think it'd be the other way round.

PS absolutely agree Lana is a Mary Sue, I find her very irritating.
pat: D/M antiquespat_t on May 19th, 2009 11:25 am (UTC)
It's interesting that you named Amanda in Highlander as a strong interesting *un* Mary Sue character. In fact, she is the *ultimate* Mary Sue character.

Lets see - she's beautiful (and everyone on the show who sees her thinks she is). She flirts with all the male characters and they lose their minds, give into her and totally sell one another out. Look at Richie, Duncan and Joe. Even Methos gets a little funny around her.

She wears the skin tight clothes. Another woman wanted to be her so badly she changed her own hair and wardrobe to look like her.

No matter what she does, Duncan takes up for her - risks his life for her. Even when it hurt Tessa. Even though she's betrayed him and almost gotten him killed.

She somehow manages to outsmart, outcon, out flirt everyone so that she has managed to live over 1000 years.

She's just so pretty and perky and *perfect*. Rebecca looked over her trying to steal from her and still opened her arms to her. Even though she never showed us any great sword skills, she still won over all the big bad guys.

Duncan looked over *all* her moral shortcomings because she was just so irresistable.

You couldn't write a more perfect *fits the profile* Mary Sue.

Unless....
(no subject) - fractured_sun on May 19th, 2009 11:29 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pat_t on May 19th, 2009 11:36 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - beccadg on May 19th, 2009 08:42 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pat_t on May 19th, 2009 08:54 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - beccadg on May 19th, 2009 09:13 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on May 19th, 2009 09:21 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - beccadg on May 19th, 2009 09:29 pm (UTC) (Expand)
pat: Adrian heepat_t on May 19th, 2009 11:33 am (UTC)
Unless....

You're writing Alexa. Ahhh, dear Alexa. Long blonde hair. Big blue eyes. Tiny, sweet little thing with such an engaging smile and tangy personality that Methos fell madly, passionately in love with her within 3 minutes of them meeting.

So in love that he was willing to throw in the Watchers, Duncan and buy two airline tickets to Paris so he could sweep her away and show her the world. Even if it meant he would have to come out of hiding.

Even her name is beautiful, Methos sighed as he became instantly obsessed and Gobsmacked with her perfection.

And, of course, she wasn't *just* a waitress. She had to be a *special* waitress that Joe cared about and watched over.

Those two (Amanda and Alexa were the ultimate *meets the definition word by word) of all Mary Sues.

There was one female character on Highlander who does *not* meet that definition. She was gorgeous, but she wasn't perfect. Other men didn't necessarily fall over themselves when they saw her. She was interesting and flawed and sometimes just a bit obnoxious. Duncan loved her, but you knew it was true love in spite of her faults. Not the *sees just so cute and makes me laugh* so I can't see her faults like Amanda.

I'm talking about Tessa. She was a spitfire. She got jealous. She didn't take any shit from our guy. She stayed up and worried about him when he didn't come home. And she had no problem being a snippy bitch when she was in a bad mood. She was real!
(no subject) - ithildyn on May 19th, 2009 06:36 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - conjured_1 on May 19th, 2009 07:48 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on May 19th, 2009 07:54 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - conjured_1 on May 19th, 2009 08:19 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on May 19th, 2009 08:24 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pat_t on May 19th, 2009 08:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Ith: DW - Tallulahithildyn on May 19th, 2009 06:39 pm (UTC)
I have more trouble writing men, and I guess I'm just not as interested in men as I am in women. Not that I don't like men, but I think they get more than their share of attention.
Becca: OFC Pride icon by beccadgbeccadg on May 19th, 2009 09:05 am (UTC)
*Snickering.* For some reason I am inordinately amused by your using "Marty Sue" instead of "Marty Stu". It might be the sleep dep. *Whistles.* You know where I stand on the whole, "The boys don't get raked over the coals like the girls do." :D

I will say my favorite example I've seen of a male writer talking about his Marty Stu was Chuck Jones talking about Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck. He said Bugs was his perfect character that got away with everything while Daffy was his everyman. ;)

Edited at 2009-05-19 09:08 am (UTC)
Ith: Japan - Lipsithildyn on May 19th, 2009 06:34 pm (UTC)
I like to be quirky and different, you know! LOL

Yes, we go way back on the whole girl issue.
Dragonsinger: Barney/Robin - Katrina87dragonsinger on May 19th, 2009 03:11 pm (UTC)
Argh! He's not giving away anything about the mother, is he? I'm ready for Ted to meet the mother now. But Barney and Robin were so cute last night.:)
Ith: Art - Royo: Eyesithildyn on May 19th, 2009 06:33 pm (UTC)
Barney and Robin were so freaking adorable!
senshoukoku nijouko: TL: teh dedsilverlightstar on May 19th, 2009 04:35 pm (UTC)
And yet, I don't get why Roddenberry fans despise Wesley. Maybe because the poor dude was a geek that was able to save the ship countless times and eventually went off with a strange dude called the Traveler (Sorry, TNG fans, if I blew it for ya.).
Ithithildyn on May 19th, 2009 06:32 pm (UTC)
I liked Wesley myself :)
(no subject) - beccadg on May 19th, 2009 09:37 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - silverlightstar on May 22nd, 2009 02:11 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - silverlightstar on May 22nd, 2009 02:09 am (UTC) (Expand)
She went that-a-way...: Amanda and Rebeccajinxed_wood on May 19th, 2009 06:11 pm (UTC)
Oh, you'll love this conversation about Uhura in the new Star Trek movie! There is much snark and I especially love violetisblue's line: I just roll my eyes and tune out completely whenever I see the phrase "Mary Sue" because at this point it's applied to any female character under the age of seventy who can make it home in a rainstorm without drowning.


Edited at 2009-05-19 06:30 pm (UTC)
Ith: Forever Knight - Janette Hatithildyn on May 19th, 2009 06:32 pm (UTC)
ROTFL!! That's exactly it! I think I'm in love.

(but I can't go read it till I've seen the movie!)

Edited at 2009-05-19 06:32 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - jinxed_wood on May 19th, 2009 06:49 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on May 19th, 2009 06:57 pm (UTC) (Expand)
piss and vinegar: marsdontwantdallion on May 19th, 2009 06:56 pm (UTC)
*lost*
Ithithildyn on May 19th, 2009 06:58 pm (UTC)
You can borrow some bread crumbs.
(no subject) - dallion on May 19th, 2009 07:00 pm (UTC) (Expand)