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03 July 2006 @ 08:23 am
'To Be / Not To Be'  
Welcome to the nineteenth installment of Methos Episode Discussion. You can find the last one, for Indiscretions here. All prior episode discussion links can be found over on the sidebar.

To Be/Not to Be, Air Date: May 1998

The popular series lays down its sword after six seasons in this stirring finale, in which MacLeod makes the ultimate sacrifice to save the lives of Amanda and Joe Dawson... then reunites with old friend Hugh Fitzcairn, and gets a look at what the world-- and his friends' lives-- would be like without him.

*******

Fitz died three hundred years ago... Horton has taken over the Watchers... Joe Dawson has been reduced to a bitter, penniless vagrant... Amanda is a black widow... and Methos has rejoined the Horsemen to avenge his fiance's death. If you think that's bad, just wait till you find out what's happened to Richie and Tessa.
~ recap and quotes via tv.com


Quotes below the curtain





Duncan: I gotta get Amanda out. It's my fight, not hers. Where're you going?
Methos: Well, I'm, uh, kind of fond of the little vixen myself. Okay?
Duncan: Yeah.
________________________

Ghost Fitz: Try not to think of yourself as dead - more, uh, metabolically challenged.
________________________

Fitzcairn: Great Scott, MacLeod! (pause) Ummm, no pun intended.
________________________

Methos: "Don't go, MacLeod. It's a trap MacLeod. MacLeod, your pants are on fire." Doesn't matter what I say, does it? Well, I've only been alive for five thousand years; what would I know about it?
________________________

Methos: Goodbye.
Duncan: I think you mean "good luck," don't you?
Methos: Of course, uh, that's what I meant.
________________________

Joe: Now, wait a minute. You're telling me that this chronicle is wrong? That it was Marcus Aedilies who took the head of Titus Marconus and not Peter Gaicus.
Methos: Seventy-four BC. I had a tidy little sum wagered on Marconus too. Had my eyes on a little summer place outside Herculanium.
Joe: Yeah, but why would his Watcher lie?
Methos: Oh, come on, Joe. You know how it is. You don't want to admit to your Watcher buddies that your guy's been whacked by some sniveling little weasel like Aedilies so you make up a story that he's been, he's been aced by the greatest swordsman in Rome.
Joe: I don't know, man. I don't know.
Methos: Hey, you ask, I tell you. And incidentally, it wasn't outside the Forum either it was, um, it was in the vomitorium.
Joe: In the vomitorium?
Methos: The place you went to vomit.
Joe: You mean they actually did do that?
Methos: You eat a seventeen coarse meal where the main garnish is honey coated ants and peacock brains... We ate; we drank; we vomited.
Joe: But see, it doesn't say anything in this chronicle about him dying in a vomitorium.
Methos: Well, is that how you'd want to go down in history? (feels an Immortal's presence) We're having company
________________________

Kronos: I think our friend is a quick learner.
Methos: Well, I always can spot potential.
Kronos: Time I think for a little test.
Methos: Dawson, you think?
Richie: Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa, who's Dawson?
Kronos: He's one of the bastards who killed our brothers Caspian and Silas.
Richie: Hey, whatever you want, I'm your man.
Methos: We want him dead.
________________________

Ghost Fitz: Kronos wanted to put the Four Horsemen back together, and you weren't around to stop him.
Duncan: But Methos had changed.
Ghost Fitz: No--without you he hadn't changed enough. Pity for Methos, and pity for Richie too.
Duncan: What happened to Richie?
Ghost Fitz: Oooohh, well there's another sad story...
________________________

(about Methos)
Duncan: What happened to him, Fitz?
Fitzcairn: He did what I do all the time, laddie...and what we all do eventually--he fell in love.
________________________

Duncan: I suppose you don't believe in ghosts either.
(Methos taps the hitman on the shoulder, then knocks him out)
Duncan: You're good.
Methos: You should see me at Halloween.
Duncan: I think I have a costume for you.
________________________

Ghost Fitz: I missed out on almost three centuries of living. Now that's an awful lot of unhappy women.
________________________

Ghost Fitz: The Horsemen rode again, and they made the Russian Mafia look like the Vienna Boys Choir.
________________________

Methos: You know, this bad-guy-just-your-size routine never works, MacLeod.
Duncan: All O'Rourke has to do is buy it for thirty seconds.
________________________

Duncan: You know, I don't know who or what you are, Methos, and I know you don't want to hear this, but you did teach me something. You taught me that life's about change, about learning to accept who you are, good or bad, and I thank you for that.





So this is it for this round! Thank you everyone for making this so much fun! And thank you enchantersnight for being a new fan and wanting to talk about the show. Without you, none of this would have happened.

Now, on to the next round! Please take a moment, if you haven't already, to vote for which season one episodes you'd like to discuss during the next round. Vote early, vote often :)

Next up will be ? ? ?. Only your poll answers will tell.

 
 
 
Roberta: Piglet Seashorerobi_travels on July 3rd, 2006 04:01 pm (UTC)
To Be - Not to Be
Okay, I will start this round with a general observation on the episodes.

I like the concept and set up in this story. However, I found the acting a little sub-par. It definitely got better
in Not to Be, but in To Be most of it seems forced.

Overall I thought the two episodes did not use guest actors to the fullest. For example, Valentine Pelka's Kronos. He should have done more. This Kronos was way too tame. In some scenes he more a stand-in then a protagonist who was leading Methos / Richie down a path to hell. Also, the fight scene, come on - one swipe and Kronos goes down. Nah, not buying that. Such a waste of a great character and actor.

The opening scene and little quip about "whole new meaning to lay over" was cute. Also enjoyed the Tessa scene's. Very emotional.

Think they could have been better, but were enjoyable. However, not the best in the series.

Just general stuff to start.

Roberta
Ith: Last Beerithildyn on July 4th, 2006 12:50 am (UTC)
Re: To Be - Not to Be
And Richie dies in each universe.
Robertarobi_travels on July 4th, 2006 01:45 am (UTC)
Re: To Be - Not to Be
Yep, Poor Richie.

He actually was more of a wimp in this universe. You would think since they actually had him in jail this time, he would be harder. But I thought he was "tougher" and had more attitude in the first few shows of the series. then again, next to Kronos and Methos as death, anyone would seem the wimp.

Roberta
enchantersnightenchantersnight on July 3rd, 2006 05:37 pm (UTC)
Without you, none of this would have happened.

Ok I know this is all my fault :)

I liked these episodes particularly Methos in love and back with Kronos! The scenes where the watchers cath up with him and his lady love were quite hard to watch due to the emotion :(

And I do have a soft spot for Fitz

Fitzcairn: Great Scott, MacLeod! (pause) Ummm, no pun intended

he gets all the best lines, apart from perhaps the whole vomitorium thing :)

Ith: Jane - Methosithildyn on July 4th, 2006 12:45 am (UTC)
Yeah, I liked seeing him in love too. Even if she was a moron [g] Kronos does have a sense of timing! That would have been a nice aspect of a Methos series -- more sex scenes! I would have liked to see some of those 68 wives. And I really liked that green shirt he was wearing in the last segment [/shallow] I thought Methos looked quite nice through the whole thing... where was I? Oh yeah!

Roberta: Piglet Seashorerobi_travels on July 4th, 2006 01:43 am (UTC)
"Yeah, I liked seeing him in love too. Even if she was a moron [g]"

Agreed. She was not to bright. Believing Horton. Now thinking back to watcher episodes,was she a watcher that had been introduced before? She wasn't Horton's daughter was she - I forget her name.

"Kronos does have a sense of timing!"


Oh yeah, great entrance. Second to the fog scene in Comes a Horseman.

"That would have been a nice aspect of a Methos series -- more sex scenes! " That is good and bad - more blue boxer shots, but hey, he would be with other women. I am not good a sharing (even in fantasy).

Roberta
Ith: Methos Blueithildyn on July 4th, 2006 03:34 am (UTC)
That is good and bad - more blue boxer shots, but hey, he would be with other women. I am not good a sharing (even in fantasy).

Not a problem I have! LOL.
Robertarobi_travels on July 4th, 2006 02:02 pm (UTC)
Roberta - "That is good and bad - more blue boxer shots, but hey, he would be with other women. I am not good a sharing (even in fantasy)."

Ith - "Not a problem I have! LOL."

Okay, this comment can be taken so many ways. Of course, my first take (actually first 5 takes) was anything but G rated. In fact, I can honestly say I was shocked (not a good thing at 8 am on a holiday).

Even after waiting a while to reply, I still come to the conclusion - Slash No!, Manage a Trois, Voyeurism- oh yeah!,

As Methos would say - Ith, there is hope for you!

Roberta


Ith: Afternoon Delightithildyn on July 4th, 2006 06:16 pm (UTC)
You've really been hanging around me and Nin too long! We've corrupted you! No, I only meant that I don't mind. That was it :) But I do have a fondness for a well written threesome story. I kind of wrote one myself a few years back.
Ith: Afternoon Delightithildyn on July 4th, 2006 07:17 pm (UTC)
Nin is proud she contributed to your corruption [g] She just told me as she walked by.
(Anonymous) on July 4th, 2006 07:20 pm (UTC)
"Nin is proud she contributed to your corruption [g] She just told me as she walked by. "

Leave it to the Ninjapiglet to cheer the corruption of ones' moral fiber.

Tell her thanks. Of course, my mind is still reeling from the comment.

Roberta
Robertarobi_travels on July 4th, 2006 07:17 pm (UTC)
What - you wrote a threesome? Nay, do not believe it. Impossible. You are playing with my mind.

Roberta
Ith: Sistersithildyn on July 4th, 2006 07:23 pm (UTC)
A vampire threesome. Actually, it was several in one story. And Tammy wrote an actual honest to god one for me a few years back too :)

You do know that the first fic I ever posted was Forever Knight erotica, right? I even had a vampire erotica piece accepted by an online magazine, but they went under before it was ever published, so I switched it to FK so I could post it as fanfic on JADFE. (the old FK adult fic email list ) I've written lots of adult fic in my time. Just most of it under another name. Didn't want the guys at work googling my name and coming across it!

Robertarobi_travels on July 4th, 2006 07:36 pm (UTC)
"You do know that the first fic I ever posted was Forever Knight erotica, right? "

Ahhh, No. Mind reeling, mouth agape.

"Actually, it was several in one story"

Major brain freeze over this. Somehow I figured you were PG in your writings.

Roberta
Ith: From Hellithildyn on July 4th, 2006 07:40 pm (UTC)
LOL! PG? You really don't know me very well, do you ? :) It's all on my archive for the world to see.

(Johnny Depp in bathtub icon seems apropos for this thread)
Roberta: Vintage Italyrobi_travels on July 4th, 2006 07:49 pm (UTC)
"You really don't know me very well, do you ?"

Well thought I had some clue, but obviously I have been remiss. That comment you made awhile back about luring people in by appearing normal is starting to take on a whole new shape.

Of course, since you are generally around Nin when these things come up (no pun intended), I suppose the Marquis De Sade would appear normal. Hence the shock value.

"It's all on my archive for the world to see. "

This I have to read.

"(Johnny Depp in bathtub icon seems apropos for this thread) "

If PW is not available, I guess. Of course I did see an icon of his PW's tattoo recently somewhere - very nice! Need to get my hands on his Bliss episodes.

Roberta
Ith: From Hellithildyn on July 4th, 2006 07:55 pm (UTC)
I think some of my older stuff is not on the archive anymore, now that I'm thinking about it. But can email it to you if you're interested. I know they were on the JADFE archive, but it's gone poof. I also have an adult version of "Oaths" . It was too graphic for FKFic list, so the version that's posted is the PG13 one.

I love the scene from "From Hell" that the icon is from. He's drinking absinthe :)

I think that's Pat's icon you're thinking of, the naked bum with the tattoo?

You can see Bliss when you come to visit if you haven't seen it before then. And the Elven Bride [snorfle]
Robertarobi_travels on July 4th, 2006 08:03 pm (UTC)
"But can email it to you if you're interested."

Please do. Have to actually read this to believe.

"I also have an adult version of "Oaths" .

Okay. Send it along.

"the naked bum with the tattoo? "

That would be the one. Very nice!


"You can see Bliss when you come to visit if you haven't seen it before then. And the Elven Bride"

I have not seen any. I thought his episode was entitled Tying up Gerald or some such thing. Definitely a must watch during the visit.

Roberta

Ith: From Hellithildyn on July 4th, 2006 08:25 pm (UTC)
There's two: Tying Up Gerald, and Guys and Dolls.
mackiedockiemackiedockie on July 3rd, 2006 07:42 pm (UTC)
I like the exchange between Joe and Methos, it's like a little coda to 'Indiscretions.' Have to wonder if the bar is closed because the furnace broke--you can see their breath in some shots. Why doesn't Joe ever invite anyone to his apartment?

Duncan offering up his head to O'Rourke...that was so _wrong._ He's lucky that Joe didn't walk right into a gun for that. I'm figuring that the only reason he didn't was a crazy hope that Methos would save the day.

Good thing Methos saved the day.
Ith: Methos Blueithildyn on July 4th, 2006 12:46 am (UTC)
Good thing Methos saved the day.

Amen to that!
pat: Methosseepat_t on July 3rd, 2006 08:27 pm (UTC)
oh wow. I'm going to have to get some sleep to be useful here. But I loved Duncan and Methos' interaction back at the barge. "People die Macleod. Immortals die."

And when he was at Tessa's house and the tears. I have this ep screen capped on PWFC Outerlimits Screencaps. I did it some time ago and haven't yanked it down yet. Very sad.

And then - of course Methos saved the day.

I loved the quickening too. As far as the last though, I thought the scene in the extras was better. They edited out way too much and changed the tone of the last scene. With Methos especially. I talked about it in my journal last year and put up pictures.

Will talk more when I've slept. thanks for these discussions.
Ith: Afternoon Delightithildyn on July 4th, 2006 12:50 am (UTC)
As far as the last though, I thought the scene in the extras was better. They edited out way too much and changed the tone of the last scene. With Methos especially.

I agree.

Probably my favourite bit of the episode was Duncan thanking Methos. 'Bout time [grumbles] [g]

Will talk more when I've slept. thanks for these discussions.

I can guarantee I'll be here [g] And you're quite welcome!
Roberta: Piglet Seashorerobi_travels on July 4th, 2006 01:37 am (UTC)
Closing Scene
"I loved the quickening too. As far as the last though, I thought the scene in the extras was better. They edited out way too much and changed the tone of the last scene. With Methos especially. I talked about it in my journal last year and put up pictures. "

I actually likes the montage. Need to watch the extra's again, however I thought the edits were good, overlapped with the song and clips, kind of a summing up of the series and the relationships.

And yes, Methos saves the day. But we all new he would.

Roberta
Mischief: Karmaem_kellesvig on July 4th, 2006 01:45 am (UTC)
I thought it was very fitting that it was always Richie's fate to die at the hand of his teacher. But we also saw how angry and vengeful Mac was toward Methos for killing Richie and you have to know that he felt that way about himself for having done the same thing.

I think that ties in with the final scene on the barge. When he killed AU!Methos, Mac was also getting what revenge he could *on himself* for killing Richie. He couldn't purge that anger and self-hatred with Ahriman because it would only be turned back against him. Killing AU!Methos finally gave vent to those feelings and let him let go of Richie. *That's* the lesson Methos taught him about change. Both his Methos and the Other Methos.

JMHO
Robertarobi_travels on July 4th, 2006 01:50 am (UTC)
Duncan / Methos Fight
"Killing AU!Methos finally gave vent to those feelings "

Good point, never really thought of that. Actually I try not to think of that scene. The idea that Duncan could kill Methos, any Methos, is just too difficult for me to digest. Not AU Methos killing Duncan, oh yeah, I could see that. In fact, I could see Methos killing anyone, because you never know what is motivating him.

Roberta
Ith: Jack - Pensiveithildyn on July 4th, 2006 03:35 am (UTC)
That's an interesting POV!
holde_maidholde_maid on July 4th, 2006 12:15 pm (UTC)
Makes a lot of sense to me.
Ith: Afternoon Delightithildyn on July 4th, 2006 06:03 am (UTC)
Music Recycling
Rewatching the last two tonight....

Alot of old music in these eps. The song playing in the bar with Fitz and Duncan, with the drunk Methos, was the song playing in the bar that Stephen Keane owned that we see Amanda dancing to. Lots of repeats of the Kronos/Horseman music, esp. when Duncan is fighting O'Rourke. And of course more of Bonny Portmore. I will never understand why, with the wealth of wonderful Scottish music out there, they chose a song about Ireland to represent a Highland Scot.

And the montage and last scenes, makes me remember how much I liked Amanda and Duncan as a couple. I think in my own personal series after these last eps, they're in a more permanent relationship.

And damn, Methos is cute! Jillian was a moron, but a lucky one for all that. And he really could read the phone book to me, and I'd die happy. How's that for a closing note? [g}
holde_maidholde_maid on July 4th, 2006 12:14 pm (UTC)
On the one hand, I love the way Methos pulls Joe's leg in the matter of the vomitorium (makes you wonder just how serious he is about other stuff?). On the other hand, it's a bit sad that it never gets cleared up, so that everyone can enjoy his little joke at Joe's expensive.
I looked it up, and actually, it wasn't all that easy to research it, but a vomitorium is of course NOT a place where people vomited (because that would be the latrina). Rather, it's a bit of architecture that vomited people *g* as they entered the auditorium to watch the gladiator games.
Ith: Jane - Methosithildyn on July 4th, 2006 06:12 pm (UTC)
Ever since the ep first aired, I've wondered if it was Methos pulling Joe's leg, or if the writers of the episode didn't know any better and really thought that's why it was called that.
patpat_t on July 4th, 2006 04:05 pm (UTC)
Ith: Jane - Methosithildyn on July 4th, 2006 06:23 pm (UTC)
Thanks for the link! I really do prefer the longer ending, but I dind't realize people were upset over the aired one. Missed that along the way :)
eveningblueeveningblue on July 7th, 2006 05:30 pm (UTC)
I agree with robi_travels that there is something sub-par about this episode(s). I'm not sure if it's the writing or the acting or the sense that they tried to cram in too much.

I imagine that if I were watching this as it aired I might have been too caught up in the "Will Duncan really die?" question to care about anything else. But I'm not, and I do.

The part I liked best was the part about Tessa (and this is unusual for me, because I'm not a big Tessa fan). There was something more subtle about her sad life than about the others' fates, and also the script spent more time on her than it did on almost anyone else.

Also, how bittersweet that Duncan gets to sleep with her again, but knows it can't last, and isn't even real! I could have done without the soft-porn love scene, though (this was a feature of early HL episodes that always made me cringe). But overall the pathos of these scenes struck me as the best thing about these episodes.


multimedeamultimedea on July 8th, 2006 04:38 pm (UTC)
I'm very much in agreement about your Tessa observations (as a so-so Tessa fan myself). Her life may have been shortened by having Duncan in it, but it was a richer, more nuanced experience. But not necessarily better. A nice coda for the series on how Immortality affects mortal life.
eveningblue: south park duncaneveningblue on July 8th, 2006 11:16 pm (UTC)
Yes. It also poses the question, "Is it better to live 12 good years or 17 dull ones?"

I also can't help wondering, as I watch, whether Alexandra Vandernoot's performance as a sad and bitter Tessa isn't perhaps informed by the actress's own bitterness at having given up this series. Of course I don't know if this is true, and am only speculating, but the thought did run through my head as I watched. Honestly I thought her performance here was better than anything she did in Season One.