?

Log in

No account? Create an account
 
 
12 June 2006 @ 08:56 am
'The Modern Prometheus'  
Welcome to the sixteenth installment of Methos Episode Discussion. You can find the last one, for Forgive Us Our Trespasses here. All prior episode discussion links can be found over on the sidebar.

The Modern Prometheus, Air Date: May 1997

Lord Byron, the brilliant Romantic poet, is alive and well and living the decadent life of a rock star. He lives life way over the edge and has taken some promising young musicians over the edge with him. When following in Byron's footsteps tragically ends the life of Dawson's protege, MacLeod is faced with a decision -- is the beauty and genius that is Byron worth the cost? ~ recap and quotes via tv.com


Quotes below the curtain





Duncan: Duncan: Cut the crap - Mike is dead because of him.
Methos: No, Mike is dead because of Mike.
Duncan: The kid idolized him. Maybe he didn't pull the trigger but he sure as hell put the gun in his hand. "To live like me you have to be like me." Come on, Methos, Mike couldn't do that, he wasn't Immortal.
Methos: And that is not Byron's fault
________________________

Byron: My task is done. My song has ceased. My theme has died into an echo...it is fit.
________________________

Byron: Would you rather have a tombstone that says "he lived for centuries', or one that says 'for centuries, he was alive"?
Methos: You're not listening to me - I don't want a tombstone.
________________________






Next up will be Indiscretions aka The Methos & Joe Show 'Archangel'.

 
 
 
enchantersnightenchantersnight on June 12th, 2006 05:51 pm (UTC)
Is it weird to like byron in the past and not in the here and now? As that what happened to me. I quite enjoyed him and Methos in the past (what was up with that goat!) but not at all in present day.

Another episode with insights into Methos (how close was he to Byron?) and very enjoyable for a Mary Shelly fan like me.

Some of those flashbacks were very risque I liked that :)

OT: Browsing tv channels over the weekend discovered HL on FX and watched with great enjoyment Epitaph for Tommy and Run for Your Life. I loved Duncan saving Carl in the latter from getting hanged and getting shot himself for his troubles.

Will keep a look out on the schedules from now on.
Ith: Afternoon Delightithildyn on June 12th, 2006 06:00 pm (UTC)
(what was up with that goat!)

Baaaaaaaa means 'no'! [g]
(no subject) - jadefire88 on June 13th, 2006 02:07 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - cyberducks on June 12th, 2006 08:49 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on June 12th, 2006 08:54 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - cyberducks on June 12th, 2006 09:03 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - enchantersnight on June 13th, 2006 06:16 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - sophiedb on June 13th, 2006 08:39 am (UTC) (Expand)
Ith: Last Beerithildyn on June 12th, 2006 05:59 pm (UTC)
Lots of interesting things in this ep. but I'll start with Methos choosing Duncan over his former student, friend, orgy partner [g] Byron.

Then there's the fact that Duncan is still judging people and so soon after FUOT. Yeah, Byron was a loser, but Methos was right, he didn't kill Mike. If stupidity were a crime... Heh.
Ekaterinn: methos/duncan (by beeej)ekaterinn on June 12th, 2006 06:59 pm (UTC)
Methos choosing Duncan over his former student, friend, orgy partner [g] Byron.

*nods* There are a lot of things Methos could have done to save Byron - not the least shoot him and hide him from Duncan - but he didn't. I think this is partly a recognition of how Byron ad seemed to really give up on life, how he couldn't change. But I also think that Methos didn't want to risk Duncan's friendship again. In this episode, Methos is left with no good choices.
(no subject) - amonitrate on June 12th, 2006 07:32 pm (UTC) (Expand)
pat: hardonpat_t on June 12th, 2006 06:19 pm (UTC)
Hmmm, am I going to get into this. I liked Byron and I liked Duncan and I loved Methos in this.

Okay, to start I felt very sorry for Byron. He was sad. He should have never been immortal. There was no way he could maintain that much drama and fill that much need for centuries. And inside where it counted, he was already dying.

Mike - that stupid young man was responsible for his own decisions. He was an adult and Joe was trying to help him. And basically, he told Joe where to get off.

*But* - and here is the thing - Byron used people's weaknesses against them - knowing they would self destruct just like he did. The only difference - they didn't get up and go on living afterward. And in the present - that is how Byron fed his need for Immortality. Not with his poetry - not with his passion. But by watching others self-destruct and knowing he would go on when they didn't.

Duncan - yes he judged. But something Duncan could never tolerate was an Immortal usiing their immortality to bring harm to others. And I think it was only because Byron was Methos' former friend and lover - that Duncan backed off long enough to issue a warning.

And Byron - was he trying to commit suicide or was this the ultimate test of self-destruction - this time with someone who had just as much chance of getting up as he did afterward. But if he killed MacLeod and continued to live after that challenge - was that the next level of high - one he was no longer obtaining with the Mikes of the world. Then what? Become a hunter - taking bigger risks until finally he lost?

I tend to cut Duncan some slack here. He truly cares about people and he didn't want to hurt Methos.
pat: APpat_t on June 12th, 2006 06:23 pm (UTC)
Part Two:

But then there is *this* side of the coin. No matter what you think of Duncan's and Methos' relationship - if you think they were just friends - or if you *know* they were lovers because they were *g* -

was there not a certain amount of jealousy in that entire scenerio - on both Duncan's and Byron's part? Byron started yanking Duncan's chain almost immediately. And Duncan became very possessive of Methos at that point. Maybe he couldn't beat his chest and grab Methos and yell "mine" - but he could show his possessive in other ways - such as including Mike under his protection and letting Byron know that what Duncan held dear was off limits in no uncertain terms.

Was he substituting Mike in the equation to get to Byron? Knowing Methos wouldn't allow it if it were about him?
(no subject) - pat_t on June 12th, 2006 06:28 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - amonitrate on June 12th, 2006 07:35 pm (UTC) (Expand)
jealousy? - eveningblue on June 12th, 2006 11:43 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - mmapmaker on June 12th, 2006 11:57 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on June 13th, 2006 06:37 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on June 20th, 2006 01:51 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on June 12th, 2006 06:36 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - eveningblue on June 12th, 2006 11:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on June 12th, 2006 06:28 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pat_t on June 12th, 2006 06:31 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on June 12th, 2006 06:39 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - amonitrate on June 12th, 2006 07:40 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Ith: Jane - Methosithildyn on June 12th, 2006 06:53 pm (UTC)
The Bounds of Decency
The Bounds of Decency

While I'm pondering Pat's three parter [g], I did want to mention the flashback. First off the shallow bit: Methos in breeches! Okay, now on to the serious bit.

If anyone still had any questions as to if Methos had really changed, I think this is as good an example as any that he had. First off, he's genuinely gentle and caring with Mary. Talk about bedside manner! Then we get to the bedroom scene, where Byron is all for a threesome with the defenseless Mary. Methos is the one to put the brakes on, to remind Byron of decency, and basically takes on the role of Mary's protector. And all this on his own, without the influence of Duncan.

I absolutely adore the flashbacks in this episode. So much more of Methos is revealed, so many more reasons to love him :)
Ekaterinn: methos (by kathyh)ekaterinn on June 12th, 2006 07:03 pm (UTC)
Re: The Bounds of Decency
Oh yes. *smiles* I do like that flashback a lot - Methos seems geniunely happy, and it's a pleasure to see him that way, after the heartbrokeness of Bordeaux. And he does take on the role of protector here - both for Mary and Byron. He's a stabilizing influence, able to curb the worst of Byron's tendencies. A hell of a long way from Death.
(no subject) - sophiedb on June 13th, 2006 09:08 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ekaterinn on June 13th, 2006 02:54 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: The Bounds of Decency - amonitrate on June 12th, 2006 07:43 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: The Bounds of Decency - ekaterinn on June 12th, 2006 08:34 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: The Bounds of Decency - ithildyn on June 13th, 2006 06:41 pm (UTC) (Expand)
amonitrateamonitrate on June 12th, 2006 07:49 pm (UTC)
what do you think of that last scene at Joe's bar? It makes a lot more sense if you see the short cut scene where matter and antimatter were mentioned. But I've always been struck by the moment where Duncan enters, stops at the threshold, and by JOe and Methos' reactions.

Joe really interests me most, as Methos' reaction is understandable. He's not ready to face Duncan yet, literally turning away.

But Joe - Joe doesn't look pleased. Relieved that Duncan's alive, perhaps, but not pleased. Joe knows the extent of what's been lost by both deaths. Note that Joe never asked for Byron's death. Didn't ask Duncan to get involved. He wasn't happy with what Byron did, his sick games with Mike, but I go the impression he knew down deep that in the end what happened to Mike was up to Mike. I also felt that he was as disappointed in Mike as he was upset at his death. Mike didn't live up to his potential. Mike failed to make the smart choice. And in the end he paid for that.
macgeorge1macgeorge1 on June 13th, 2006 02:42 am (UTC)
Actually, as I recall, Joe egged Duncan on, and was furious that Byron would deliberately use Mike's obvious hero-worship to corrupt him, ruin his talent and cause his death. It seemed a completely premiditated, deliberate manipulation of a star-struck kid by a guy who was a couple of hundred years old, with the kind of charisma that had already made history several times over, and knew it and used it ruthlessly.

I think Joe was mourning for Mike, not Byron.
(no subject) - ithildyn on June 13th, 2006 06:42 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - amonitrate on June 13th, 2006 08:50 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - macgeorge1 on June 14th, 2006 12:29 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - amonitrate on June 14th, 2006 01:08 am (UTC) (Expand)
kethali on June 12th, 2006 08:21 pm (UTC)
This has got to be one of my favorite Duncan episodes of all times. Why? Because of all these things the others already mentioned--jealousy (whether the grounds for it are romantic in nature or not); tendency to judge too quickly and resort to unnecessary violence; a certain amount of hypocrisy (holding Immortals to a different moral standard than the one applying to mortals); and just plain lack of compassion toward Methos. All this paints Duncan as flawed, and it's good to see the hero come across like that every so often. Makes him more real and thus more appealing, at least to me.
Laurie odell: beige methoscyberducks on June 12th, 2006 08:58 pm (UTC)
People always tell me that the whole notion of "Judgmental Duncan" comes from the Horsemen eps - but this is actually the only episode where I find Duncan truly judgmental.

Basically, I am a firm believer that adults - even young adults - make their own choices and have to live and die by them. Nobody forced Byron's life style on Mike. Mac should have minded his own business and stayed out of this.
macgeorge1macgeorge1 on June 13th, 2006 02:48 am (UTC)
Byron was using his Immortality to cause the deaths of mortals. He did it deliberately, repeatedly and without remorse. Call me judgmental, too, but if anything, Methos should have whacked the guy because he *knew* how Byron could corrupt others not strong enough to fight his magnetism. He was a drug pusher who knowingly led others to their deaths. You can blame the dead ones for their own fate, but does that mean you stand by and do nothing to stop the one who pushed them, led them, bullied them and threatened them into, as Byron did to Mike?
Carene: Vintagecarenejeans on June 12th, 2006 09:19 pm (UTC)
I don't think Duncan is overly judgemental in this ep. Byron isn't just a "loser," and he's a lot more than a "bad influence" on Mike. He lures Mike to his death, just as he lures the guy at the beginning to jump. Bryon can't die, but he can take a suicidal plunge alongside someone who will *not* walk away afterwards.

It's interesting to compare him to Gregor in "Studies In Light" -- he's also suicidal, also hates his immortality, and also wants to get close to mortals' deaths, but he only uses a camera. It's sick and creepy, but he doesn't *kill* people. So, in the end, Duncan spares him (and "saves" him as well). Byron is too far gone down the path to self-destruction, and instead of erm, falling on his own sword, he commits suicide by proxy. He *does* kill people.

He's also reckless -- part it's arrogance, but a lot of it's desperation. The scene on the rooftop where Byron's hanging on to the pole and screaming for the lightning to come and get him is telling, I think.

And the lighting does come -- in the form of Duncan.
kethali on June 12th, 2006 09:51 pm (UTC)
Yes, but therein lies the rub with the whole business of passing judgment. Sure, Byron had a part in Mike's demise. Yes, he was an arrogant, self-centered—and self-loathing—bastard. The question is, though, whether he really deserved to die for it. According to Duncan, he did. I say that's rather harsh, not to mention arrogant in its own right. It's one thing to take action when someone perpetuates violence, it's quite another to deem a man worthy of execution just because you can't abide his attitude and the way it influences the weak-minded.
(no subject) - carenejeans on June 12th, 2006 10:12 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - eveningblue on June 12th, 2006 11:53 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - amonitrate on June 13th, 2006 12:12 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - lastrega on June 13th, 2006 02:39 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on June 13th, 2006 06:49 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - amonitrate on June 14th, 2006 01:09 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - lastrega on June 14th, 2006 02:32 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - amonitrate on June 15th, 2006 12:19 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - lastrega on June 15th, 2006 08:37 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - amonitrate on June 15th, 2006 12:59 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on June 15th, 2006 03:41 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - lastrega on June 13th, 2006 02:22 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - unovis on June 12th, 2006 11:08 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kethali on June 13th, 2006 12:00 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on June 13th, 2006 01:40 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - lastrega on June 13th, 2006 02:32 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kethali on June 13th, 2006 03:09 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - amonitrate on June 13th, 2006 12:05 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - macgeorge1 on June 13th, 2006 02:56 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - amonitrate on June 13th, 2006 08:45 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - macgeorge1 on June 14th, 2006 12:27 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - amonitrate on June 14th, 2006 01:15 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - macgeorge1 on June 14th, 2006 03:34 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - amonitrate on June 15th, 2006 12:26 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - macgeorge1 on June 15th, 2006 01:38 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - amonitrate on June 15th, 2006 02:49 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kethali on June 13th, 2006 03:19 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on June 12th, 2006 11:45 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ithildyn on June 12th, 2006 11:43 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Ith: Last Beerithildyn on June 13th, 2006 01:59 am (UTC)
It's a Rotten Job...
but I'm going to stick in the DVD and wach this ep again!
Ith: Absinthe Posterithildyn on June 13th, 2006 02:48 am (UTC)
Re: It's a Rotten Job...
About halfway through ... Byron: "so speaks the hero". Right there, that's where the gauntlet was dropped. when Duncan warns Byron off, Methos just looks at Byron with resignation, he falls in with Duncan. Then they're quoting poetry and comparing lists of genius that were or were not nuts. Almost like Methos is trying to convince himself, not Duncan.

And on a totally shallow note: Methos during the flashback. How could I have forgotten the sprawl? Pretty hands, pretty eyelashes and pretty hair. And he's so kind and caring of Mary.

Okay, I'm done for now. Back to the episode.

I think the absinthe poster icon is fitting :)

Re: It's a Rotten Job... - ithildyn on June 13th, 2006 03:11 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: It's a Rotten Job... - ithildyn on June 13th, 2006 03:14 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: It's a Rotten Job... - ithildyn on June 13th, 2006 03:25 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: It's a Rotten Job... - macgeorge1 on June 13th, 2006 03:21 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: It's a Rotten Job... - ithildyn on June 13th, 2006 03:35 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: It's a Rotten Job... - keerawa on June 13th, 2006 04:21 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: It's a Rotten Job... - ithildyn on June 13th, 2006 04:25 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: It's a Rotten Job... - amonitrate on June 14th, 2006 01:19 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: It's a Rotten Job... - mackiedockie on June 13th, 2006 03:50 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: It's a Rotten Job... - ithildyn on June 13th, 2006 03:58 am (UTC) (Expand)
mackiedockiemackiedockie on June 13th, 2006 04:27 am (UTC)
Jealousy
Concerning the jealous undercurrents that abound in TMP--what about jealousy as motive for Byron's depredations? The young, passionate song writer, gulled into jumping to his death, and the bright, talented (if painfully naive) guitarist, Mike, both shared a creative spark that Byron sought to first share (insinuating himself as a mentor), then destroy.

And there is another minor mystery--Mike was making his first appearance guesting with Joe's band in Paris--it would be very unlikely that Byron would have heard of the green kid. Was he trolling for bigger fish? One look at Joe, and Byron dismisses him with consummate rudeness. I hazard a (possibly crackpot) theory that Byron realized there was no way he was going to manipulate Joe with flattery or promises, and he immediately set his sights on the easier inexperienced target.

With malice aforethought...his creative spark sputtered, and Byron now indulged in creativity's mirror, destruction.
Ith: From Hellithildyn on June 13th, 2006 04:38 am (UTC)
Re: Jealousy
what about jealousy as motive for Byron's depredations? The young, passionate song writer, gulled into jumping to his death, and the bright, talented (if painfully naive) guitarist, Mike, both shared a creative spark that Byron sought to first share (insinuating himself as a mentor), then destroy.

Now that's an interesting perspective. Huh. It makes sense, it really does.
Re: Jealousy - amonitrate on June 14th, 2006 01:21 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Jealousy - sophiedb on June 13th, 2006 09:08 am (UTC) (Expand)
ex_iocaste2 on June 13th, 2006 10:53 am (UTC)
In case this wasn't said before and I missed it --

At least one commenter above said that Duncan didn't come off as judgmental until this episode; I think, however, that the HL writers really went out of their way to make Duncan judgmental in several eps, it's just that until TMP, you couldn't really disagree with his judgments. I was rewatching Valkyrie, CAH/Rev, and FUOT, and it's interesting how the theme of judgment and forgiveness is explicitly stated in all of them -- there was some real planning there, which I appreciate.

TMP, however, was the first time where you really question Duncan's judgment, because the "threat" Byron poses is, as everyone has said, merely influential.

As for why Duncan has different standards for mortals and immortals, I think that's simple: Mortal justice can deal with mortal criminals, but not immortal ones. That's why Duncan has to step in when immortals are posing threats.

eveningblueeveningblue on June 14th, 2006 06:08 am (UTC)
I very much agree that Duncan's judgments start to be called into question around the time of "Valkyrie." The first time I watched that, I thought he was absolutely right in doing what he did. The second time, not so much. Why is it his business? Who made him god? That final bit, with him asking Methos "Who will judge me?", is prescient, I think.
Ith: Afternoon Delightithildyn on June 13th, 2006 03:53 pm (UTC)
An Honest Question
It occurred to me as I was rewatching last night to finally ask what it is those of you have mentioned that Methos and Byron were lovers see in the episode to make you so sure they were. It also may be what I think of when I see 'lovers' is different than what someone else means, so that may be part of the problem. My take on the episode from the first time I saw it (At Syndicon the week it aired in a suite full of women in the dark. Gillian and Donna brought a tape of it for us all to watch with them), and one that hasn't changed too much over the years:

My assumption was, based on the amount of drugs, alcohol, and farm animals we saw in the flashbacks, that there was a great deal of casual sex going on -- orgy is about the only word I can think of that fits -- group sex, perhaps. Granted, we don't see that, but it was a TV show [g] They're chasing the maids around, Percy is making out with a woman who is not his wife, and the scene where the woman is pouring wine down her leg kind of sealed that impression for me, if what I'd seen already hadn't done so. So while Byron and Methos may have had sexual contact, that doesn't mean 'lovers' to me. To me that implies two people in a committed romantic relationship, and Byron just doesn't seem to be that guy.

Then there's the bedroom scene with Byron, Mary, and Methos. Byron is under the influence, wanting to break every taboo he can, indulge in the forbidden and exciting, and he really wants Methos to do it with him. Methos is obviously tempted, but puts the brakes on and tells Byron to basically knock it off. Again, nothing in that scene screams 'lovers' to me, just general licentiousness.

What I took away from the episode as far as the relationship between the two of them was one of a very strong teacher/student bond, mentor/protege, and friendship.

So now I'm very interested in the other side of the coin, and I think this is the right crowd to ask :)
Ith: Shy Girlithildyn on June 13th, 2006 06:29 pm (UTC)
Re: An Honest Question
Heh, reading over my comment and realizing how hard I was trying to be delicate. Not sure I suceeded. [adjusts tea hat and eats another finger sandwich]
Re: An Honest Question - eveningblue on June 13th, 2006 10:56 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: An Honest Question - ithildyn on June 13th, 2006 11:07 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: An Honest Question - amonitrate on June 14th, 2006 01:24 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: An Honest Question - ithildyn on June 14th, 2006 01:37 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: An Honest Question - jinxed_wood on June 14th, 2006 05:17 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: An Honest Question - ithildyn on June 14th, 2006 05:24 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: An Honest Question - lastrega on June 14th, 2006 02:42 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: An Honest Question - ithildyn on June 14th, 2006 02:48 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: An Honest Question - lastrega on June 14th, 2006 03:23 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: An Honest Question - ithildyn on June 14th, 2006 03:29 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: An Honest Question - lastrega on June 14th, 2006 03:34 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: An Honest Question - ithildyn on June 14th, 2006 03:39 am (UTC) (Expand)
Watcher Chronicles - eveningblue on June 14th, 2006 05:09 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Watcher Chronicles - lastrega on June 14th, 2006 05:55 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Watcher Chronicles - (Anonymous) on June 21st, 2006 05:38 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Watcher Chronicles - ithildyn on June 21st, 2006 06:09 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Watcher Chronicles - lastrega on June 22nd, 2006 01:28 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Watcher Chronicles - ithildyn on June 22nd, 2006 03:13 pm (UTC) (Expand)